Hellhammer
Apr 6, 11:46 AM
So is that also true for the difference between SV and LV? If that is the case, the Core i7-2649M you cite above (2.3 LV chip) should be faster compared to the 2.3 i5 in the low end Pro 13?
Thanks!
It would be about as fast. The IGP is 150MHz slower though so graphics wise it would be slightly slower. chrmjenkins explained some smaller details but in terms of performance, i7-2649M should be similar to i5-2520M.
Sure clock speed isn't everything. But you better go read up some more on Tue Intel HD3000 IGP. You're using facts from the STD voltage SB IGP and applying them to the ULV SB IGP. Go read about the graphics on the Samsung Series 9 laptops. The 13" model uses this very chip cited. It shows greater than a 50% drop in graphics performance from the 320m to ULV IGP used in SB.
This has been the problem all along with everyone. They're attributing facts that are actually fallacies to this Intel IGP.
Remember that those are numbers under Windows. Anand mentioned in his 2011 MBP review that Intel HD 3000 has brilliant drivers in OS X, and in general it beat the 320M in OS X too. In Windows it got badly beaten by 320M. Sure the LV and especially ULV IGP will be slower than 320M, even in OS X but it may not be as bad as 50% drop.
Thanks!
It would be about as fast. The IGP is 150MHz slower though so graphics wise it would be slightly slower. chrmjenkins explained some smaller details but in terms of performance, i7-2649M should be similar to i5-2520M.
Sure clock speed isn't everything. But you better go read up some more on Tue Intel HD3000 IGP. You're using facts from the STD voltage SB IGP and applying them to the ULV SB IGP. Go read about the graphics on the Samsung Series 9 laptops. The 13" model uses this very chip cited. It shows greater than a 50% drop in graphics performance from the 320m to ULV IGP used in SB.
This has been the problem all along with everyone. They're attributing facts that are actually fallacies to this Intel IGP.
Remember that those are numbers under Windows. Anand mentioned in his 2011 MBP review that Intel HD 3000 has brilliant drivers in OS X, and in general it beat the 320M in OS X too. In Windows it got badly beaten by 320M. Sure the LV and especially ULV IGP will be slower than 320M, even in OS X but it may not be as bad as 50% drop.
FMJessica
Aug 25, 05:24 PM
A month ago I turned in my brand new 3 month old MacBook Pro to the Apple store because it had some sort of weird lines on the screen. They weren't anything I'd ever seen before, and when you had an application open over the lines, they dissapeared. Well, Apple send my computer back not fixed. So I had to send it out again, and this time the Apple store forgot to send it out. So eventually it got sent out and it was on hold for a part forever and yada yada yada three weeks later I'm super pissed.
I called Apple for the millionth time to complain, and finally they connected me to someone who set it up so that I could have a brand new, (and faster from the 1.83 GHz to the 2.0) MBP.
I had to complain a ton of times, and they still couldn't get my computer fixed in a fair amount of time. They told me everything was "expidited", even the parts they needed, but it was still taking almost a month.
I was so dissapointed in Apple! I'm a Mac-or-nothing kind of person, and this treatment was unacceptable. No wonder everyone's so pissed off! I'm glad it's not just me, but at the same time I hope they do something about it.
Anyway, my new computer is way better, and they also threw in 100$ off any iPod + my student discount, so we've made up.
BTW, I got my new new computer last weekend, so this was super recent.
Jessica
I called Apple for the millionth time to complain, and finally they connected me to someone who set it up so that I could have a brand new, (and faster from the 1.83 GHz to the 2.0) MBP.
I had to complain a ton of times, and they still couldn't get my computer fixed in a fair amount of time. They told me everything was "expidited", even the parts they needed, but it was still taking almost a month.
I was so dissapointed in Apple! I'm a Mac-or-nothing kind of person, and this treatment was unacceptable. No wonder everyone's so pissed off! I'm glad it's not just me, but at the same time I hope they do something about it.
Anyway, my new computer is way better, and they also threw in 100$ off any iPod + my student discount, so we've made up.
BTW, I got my new new computer last weekend, so this was super recent.
Jessica
Multimedia
Aug 23, 10:38 AM
My Quad G5 is silent as well, unlike Dual 2.7's which rev frequently.
I was concerned that the fans at the rear ports never spin, even during the Apple Hardware Test, but I've noticed that in other Quads as well. CPU temps are 50 to 60 degrees celcius.
Multimedia, would you confirm both with your Quad G5, please?How do I do that? I never hear any fans from it. Analysis temperature Software links?
I was concerned that the fans at the rear ports never spin, even during the Apple Hardware Test, but I've noticed that in other Quads as well. CPU temps are 50 to 60 degrees celcius.
Multimedia, would you confirm both with your Quad G5, please?How do I do that? I never hear any fans from it. Analysis temperature Software links?
mrkramer
Nov 28, 08:02 PM
I agree with the people here who have said that if this happens they would pirate all of the Music that they wanted from universal. If this happens and I buy a new iPod after that I will just go and pirate the Music that I want since the record labels have already been paid.
gauriemma
Nov 29, 10:34 AM
Sounds like Universal is realizing that their anticipated cash influx they were hoping to see from Zune sales isn't going to materialize, so they're looking to leech off a player that will actually be AROUND in 2007.
theBB
Mar 31, 07:13 PM
If you're going to licence your project as open source, then you do actually have to release the source. I know there's often a delay with commercial products. I suppose the tolerance of the open source community depends on the reason and the amount of time the code is held back.
Well, the rules for GPL say you need to release the source code along with the software and you actually have to offer them through the same channel, so that you cannot make it practically impossible for people to get to the source even if it is theoretically available. Of course, GPL is not the only "open source" license. This is Google's playground, so they get to define it any way they wish.
Well, the rules for GPL say you need to release the source code along with the software and you actually have to offer them through the same channel, so that you cannot make it practically impossible for people to get to the source even if it is theoretically available. Of course, GPL is not the only "open source" license. This is Google's playground, so they get to define it any way they wish.
CaoCao
Feb 28, 07:42 PM
Do you not think that the priests should be jailed for raping children?
Crimes against children are usually seen badly in the public eye. The priests should not be an exception.
priests should be held to the same standard and jailed for raping children after there is conclusive proof.
Crimes against children are usually seen badly in the public eye. The priests should not be an exception.
priests should be held to the same standard and jailed for raping children after there is conclusive proof.
sysiphus
Mar 21, 12:37 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)
justin bieber 2011 pictures
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new-justinbieber-2011-sexy-hot
Justin Bieber possible New
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raymondso
Sep 19, 09:40 AM
I am new to this (and still waiting to buy my first Mac). BUT why all this talk about speed and not about screen size.
I will buy a new Mac as soon as the new models arrive, but I could probably do with a MacBook - but I just think 13" is to small (my eyes are getting old). Does anyone think a 15" MacBook will be out anytime soon - or do I just have to pay the extra price for the MacBook Pro
for me......i would like MBP to have a smaller monitor version to make it more portable :D
I will buy a new Mac as soon as the new models arrive, but I could probably do with a MacBook - but I just think 13" is to small (my eyes are getting old). Does anyone think a 15" MacBook will be out anytime soon - or do I just have to pay the extra price for the MacBook Pro
for me......i would like MBP to have a smaller monitor version to make it more portable :D
Hastings101
Apr 25, 01:54 PM
I don't care if Google does it, that doesn't give Apple free reign to do it as well. Both Google and Apple need to be looked at a bit more closely.
Also, it's free publicity for Apple, especially if this becomes a big case :p
Also, it's free publicity for Apple, especially if this becomes a big case :p
daneoni
Aug 27, 05:54 PM
I was just checking out the CD vs C2D comparison at Anandtech, pretty interesting stuff.
My question is this, is Santa Rosa strictly the mobile platform? I'm a student holding off for an iMac revision, and am wondering if apple utilizes Conroe in the iMac, will the faster FSB's be supported? Is an updated platform already available for Conroe? (I guess I had more than one question )
Thanks
Santa Rosa is for mobile platforms only. As far as i can tell the Conroe chips already have a rich FSB by default 1066MHz i think. Apple may use conroe and may use merom but conroe is looking to be the slated candidate.
My question is this, is Santa Rosa strictly the mobile platform? I'm a student holding off for an iMac revision, and am wondering if apple utilizes Conroe in the iMac, will the faster FSB's be supported? Is an updated platform already available for Conroe? (I guess I had more than one question )
Thanks
Santa Rosa is for mobile platforms only. As far as i can tell the Conroe chips already have a rich FSB by default 1066MHz i think. Apple may use conroe and may use merom but conroe is looking to be the slated candidate.
Macnoviz
Jul 20, 08:17 AM
I wonder what they're going to call them, Quad sounds cool but "Octa or Octo" just sounds a bit silly.
MacPro8?
The Mactopus??
ByteCore
MacPro8?
The Mactopus??
ByteCore
Dalton63841
Apr 8, 04:18 AM
As best as I can figure, it works like this. Managers get good grades if they sell certain amounts of products.
I'll use low numbers here. Let's say BB corporate wants you to sell at least 5 iPads a day to make your "Quota". One day, 10 iPads come in. You sell all ten, yay, you made quota for the day.
But the next day, none get shipped to the store. So, boo, you didn't make quota, since you didn't have any to sell.
So, if you get 10 the day after that, & not knowing if more are coming tomorrow, you sell 5, make quota, and hold the other 5 for the next day when, low and behold, none get shipped to the store. You still have 5 left over to sell, which you do, and again you make quota for the day.
Basically the more days you make quota, the happier BB corporate is, and the better chance Mr. Manager gets a bonus down the road.
Mr. Manager (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4DMPmoJkJQ)
This guy has a firm understanding of how retail chains work. This is EXACTLY the case and how MOST major chains operate.
I'll use low numbers here. Let's say BB corporate wants you to sell at least 5 iPads a day to make your "Quota". One day, 10 iPads come in. You sell all ten, yay, you made quota for the day.
But the next day, none get shipped to the store. So, boo, you didn't make quota, since you didn't have any to sell.
So, if you get 10 the day after that, & not knowing if more are coming tomorrow, you sell 5, make quota, and hold the other 5 for the next day when, low and behold, none get shipped to the store. You still have 5 left over to sell, which you do, and again you make quota for the day.
Basically the more days you make quota, the happier BB corporate is, and the better chance Mr. Manager gets a bonus down the road.
Mr. Manager (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4DMPmoJkJQ)
This guy has a firm understanding of how retail chains work. This is EXACTLY the case and how MOST major chains operate.
netdog
Aug 11, 03:03 PM
As an example: Here in europe we have vendors that sell cellphones where you can pick which carrier you want and pay different prices for the phone dependent on what carrier and type of contract you pick. However, you can also buy the buy the phone without a contract (unlocked)
The market for unlocked phones in the USA is still very small. Providers will generally not unlock them, and there aren't shops on the street who will unlock phones as there are here in Europe.
When you go abroad with an American phone, you are usually limited to the service that your provider offers (through a carrier here) and you cannot just pop in another sim. This is very expensive because they know that they are holding you hostage. The first place that I would head with a new phone when I was visiting London was Tottenham Court, so that I could get the phone unlocked and pop in my local pay-as-you-talk sim.
Unlike the big network independent vendors here in Europe, usually in the USA, such vendors still only sell phones locked to various networks, and bundle in the calling plans which the shop receives a reward for. As I am sure you understand, these phones are offered with deep discounts subsidized as part of each network's customer aquisition costs, just as they are offered for free or at a reduced cost here. Unlocked phones do cost considerably more, and it is often best to buy a pay-as-you-go locked phone in Europe, and have someone unlock it for you for £10.
This is changing, but most Americans I know who have gotten their American-bought phones unlocked have mailed them away to vendors they have found on places like eBay.
The USA is a very different market.
The market for unlocked phones in the USA is still very small. Providers will generally not unlock them, and there aren't shops on the street who will unlock phones as there are here in Europe.
When you go abroad with an American phone, you are usually limited to the service that your provider offers (through a carrier here) and you cannot just pop in another sim. This is very expensive because they know that they are holding you hostage. The first place that I would head with a new phone when I was visiting London was Tottenham Court, so that I could get the phone unlocked and pop in my local pay-as-you-talk sim.
Unlike the big network independent vendors here in Europe, usually in the USA, such vendors still only sell phones locked to various networks, and bundle in the calling plans which the shop receives a reward for. As I am sure you understand, these phones are offered with deep discounts subsidized as part of each network's customer aquisition costs, just as they are offered for free or at a reduced cost here. Unlocked phones do cost considerably more, and it is often best to buy a pay-as-you-go locked phone in Europe, and have someone unlock it for you for £10.
This is changing, but most Americans I know who have gotten their American-bought phones unlocked have mailed them away to vendors they have found on places like eBay.
The USA is a very different market.
archurban
Sep 19, 02:08 AM
Mc keller, you're right. there are somebody misunderstand. we're not all geek, OK? I just use mac for my work or entertainment. my macbook will be kept for 2 years. so I don't care until 2008. plus, merom is only 10% better. it's not much different, and gets more hotter. I won't buy it.
Stridder44
Mar 26, 05:00 AM
This seems a little fast for the first GM. Maybe not such a big update after all? Where are all the secrets? The UI could use more of an overhaul IMO. This is probably just for the devs and they will bust out some fancy fancy at WWDC. I hope! Gotta have that one more thing...
I hope Lion lives up to the name and is BEAST.
Exactly how I feel about it. I mean it feels like they just told us about it. We're just now starting to get rumors and tips about the new OS. Windows 8 isn't slated to come out until Q4 2012. Take your time Apple. Snow Leopard is a fantastic and very stable OS. PLEASE don't rush Lion! Take your time to iron out the bugs, and add more stuff in if need be.
I hope Lion lives up to the name and is BEAST.
Exactly how I feel about it. I mean it feels like they just told us about it. We're just now starting to get rumors and tips about the new OS. Windows 8 isn't slated to come out until Q4 2012. Take your time Apple. Snow Leopard is a fantastic and very stable OS. PLEASE don't rush Lion! Take your time to iron out the bugs, and add more stuff in if need be.
EagerDragon
Aug 27, 11:03 AM
Apple is now getting their parts from the same bin that PC makers use. Intel = cheap parts. Cheap parts = low quality.
Same thing with the batteries....
OS X can run on PPC and X86. Apple should target X86 to consumers and PPC for pro's.
That $100 million that Apple just wasted on Creative could have meant new supercooled mobile G5's if it would have been pumped into IBM (Power.org). Instead we have these halfbaked Wintel parts to deal with MUCH fewer problems with PowerPC based Mac's.
http://www.appledefects.com/?cat=6
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook_Pro
If Apple could not get IBM to provide cooler and more powerful chips back then with the full set of customers behind them......... what makes you think that the pro comunity will be able to do so?
I have no idea what the pro vs the rest of us is but I am sure it is less than 100% of all users, as such it is less likely.
IBM has no incentive to produce a cool and fast chip, our pro comunity also wants performance to create all those videos and edit all those photos.
There are a few snags, but they will iron them out. I am glad they did the switch to Intel. Do notice from my signature I do not yet own one, I am waiting for Leopard to take full advantage of the Intel chips. So this time next year I will be looking to get my 1 or 2 additional systems based on SantaRosa and Leopard.
Same thing with the batteries....
OS X can run on PPC and X86. Apple should target X86 to consumers and PPC for pro's.
That $100 million that Apple just wasted on Creative could have meant new supercooled mobile G5's if it would have been pumped into IBM (Power.org). Instead we have these halfbaked Wintel parts to deal with MUCH fewer problems with PowerPC based Mac's.
http://www.appledefects.com/?cat=6
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook_Pro
If Apple could not get IBM to provide cooler and more powerful chips back then with the full set of customers behind them......... what makes you think that the pro comunity will be able to do so?
I have no idea what the pro vs the rest of us is but I am sure it is less than 100% of all users, as such it is less likely.
IBM has no incentive to produce a cool and fast chip, our pro comunity also wants performance to create all those videos and edit all those photos.
There are a few snags, but they will iron them out. I am glad they did the switch to Intel. Do notice from my signature I do not yet own one, I am waiting for Leopard to take full advantage of the Intel chips. So this time next year I will be looking to get my 1 or 2 additional systems based on SantaRosa and Leopard.
leekohler
Apr 28, 04:28 PM
Well he's obviously American! Just look at him! ;)
Yeah, I wanna know why he is "obviously" born in the US, and Obama isn't/couldn't be.
Yeah, I wanna know why he is "obviously" born in the US, and Obama isn't/couldn't be.
tortoise
Aug 22, 05:19 PM
The next Xeon is Clovertown, which is just Woodcrest scaled to 4 cores with a few changes in clock and FSB etc. Tigerton comes next, also 4 cores but MP capable (3+ chips possible) and with a possibility of increased FSB speed, bigger L2 cache and so on.
This will likely suck, because the interconnect Intel is using is just too damn slow. Putting four cores in the same package will just make the situation worse, because a lot of applications are significantly limited by memory performance.
The Woodcrest processors have been put through their paces pretty well on the supercomputing lists, and their Achille's heal is the memory subsystem. Current generation AMD Opterons still clearly outscale Woodcrest in real-world memory bandwidth with only two cores. Unless Intel pulls a rabbit out of their hat with their memory architecture issues when the quad core is released, AMDs quad core is going to embarrass them because of the memory bottleneck. And AMD is already starting to work on upgrading their already markedly superior memory architecture.
This will likely suck, because the interconnect Intel is using is just too damn slow. Putting four cores in the same package will just make the situation worse, because a lot of applications are significantly limited by memory performance.
The Woodcrest processors have been put through their paces pretty well on the supercomputing lists, and their Achille's heal is the memory subsystem. Current generation AMD Opterons still clearly outscale Woodcrest in real-world memory bandwidth with only two cores. Unless Intel pulls a rabbit out of their hat with their memory architecture issues when the quad core is released, AMDs quad core is going to embarrass them because of the memory bottleneck. And AMD is already starting to work on upgrading their already markedly superior memory architecture.
Trekkie
Sep 14, 05:22 PM
I got this great response this morning from my IT snob:
"Where in that linked article does it say 64bit? I see 65 nm, but not 64 bit. Duct taping two 32 bit cores together may get you Mac 64 bit processing... great for drawing cool pictures."
Anyone have a link that shows that Clovertown is 64 bit? Please help me to defeat this PC IT ogre
Why not get it from The Horses Mouth (http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/core2duo/pdf/intel_multicore_fact_sheet.pdf) over at intel (PDF Warning)
They specifically state that Clovertown is a multi-core packaging of Woodcrest which is a 64 bit processor.
Hate it when IT people act like morons and give the rest of us a bad name.
"Where in that linked article does it say 64bit? I see 65 nm, but not 64 bit. Duct taping two 32 bit cores together may get you Mac 64 bit processing... great for drawing cool pictures."
Anyone have a link that shows that Clovertown is 64 bit? Please help me to defeat this PC IT ogre
Why not get it from The Horses Mouth (http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/core2duo/pdf/intel_multicore_fact_sheet.pdf) over at intel (PDF Warning)
They specifically state that Clovertown is a multi-core packaging of Woodcrest which is a 64 bit processor.
Hate it when IT people act like morons and give the rest of us a bad name.
Iconoclysm
Apr 20, 06:18 PM
Actually, anyone above the age of six knew about Apple Records.
We all lived and breathed vinyl back then :)
You're right, but I don't even know why I'm arguing this point - using a logo from a record label for a computer company is not nearly the same thing as using another computer company's designs to make products that compete with it.
We all lived and breathed vinyl back then :)
You're right, but I don't even know why I'm arguing this point - using a logo from a record label for a computer company is not nearly the same thing as using another computer company's designs to make products that compete with it.
srxtr
Mar 31, 03:54 PM
This wont end androids openness. It will make is so that there is more of a consistent experience amung all android devices.
We will still be able to install from "unknown sources" for example.
Relaz macrumors.. not as big as deal as you are making it.
Openness means it should not matter whether it's consistent or not.
If every android device out there was consistent with each other, that defies the definition of openness.
Being able to install whatever you want from "unknown sources" is not the "open" OS this article is referring to.
We will still be able to install from "unknown sources" for example.
Relaz macrumors.. not as big as deal as you are making it.
Openness means it should not matter whether it's consistent or not.
If every android device out there was consistent with each other, that defies the definition of openness.
Being able to install whatever you want from "unknown sources" is not the "open" OS this article is referring to.
Stridder44
Jul 20, 02:27 PM
I disagree. I think Apple will use Core 2 Duo (Conroe) in the iMac, and Merom in the MBP. The iMac could hold a G5, why not Conroe?
On top of that, you'll notice that a 2.16 GHz Conroe costs $70 less than the 1.83 GHz Yonah that's in the iMac now, $70 less than a 2 GHz Merom, and $200 less than a 2.16 GHz Merom, increasing Apple's profit margins on the iMac considerably or allowing a price drop- plus they can advertise it as a desktop processor.
In fact, even if Conroe was too hot (which I highly doubt, since the iMac had a G5), a 2.16 GHz Conroe underclocked to 2 GHz still saves $70 over a 2 GHz Merom.
But what about the MacBook!! *weeps*
On top of that, you'll notice that a 2.16 GHz Conroe costs $70 less than the 1.83 GHz Yonah that's in the iMac now, $70 less than a 2 GHz Merom, and $200 less than a 2.16 GHz Merom, increasing Apple's profit margins on the iMac considerably or allowing a price drop- plus they can advertise it as a desktop processor.
In fact, even if Conroe was too hot (which I highly doubt, since the iMac had a G5), a 2.16 GHz Conroe underclocked to 2 GHz still saves $70 over a 2 GHz Merom.
But what about the MacBook!! *weeps*
HBOC
Apr 8, 02:29 AM
Best Buy is a strange store. It is the only place where you can be told a computer with an i3 and 8 gbs of ram is better then a MBP simply because it has a picture of an alien on it. Best Buys tech people are fun to talk to because they are normally so wrong and they are the reason for the stupid PC and Mac "Fanboy" arguements. When they want to sell a product they will do all that is in their power to do so.
If the store favors apple they will tell people that every single PC will get a virus and they will need to get really expensive anti-virus that needs to be updated five times a day. If the Store is Bias against apple then macs are incapable of doing PC things such as Word processing. Got to love Best Tards
Really? C'mon. Most Best Buys don't even have an employee maning the Apple section.
Not saying this story is true or false but Best Buy employs non-commissioned based sales staff. There are no quotas to speak of. This is a public company and sales quotas would be accessible to stockholders.
I do not intend to be rude, but there is a difference in HDMI cables, no matter what the Internet tells you. Conductors, shielding materials/layers and the way the connectors are put together are a few differentiators. An AudioQuest Coffee cable, for example, which is several hundred dollars ($600 I believe for a 1.5m) is made of pure silver starting with the tips and going the length of the cable. This is not the same as a no name $5 dollar HDMI cable from Amazon.
That is a little extreme. I can see perhaps there is a difference in a cable that is longer than 10 feet, but really I will not spend more than $4 on a cable. If you can afford a $600 HDMI 3 FOOT cable and are conscious when you buy it (meaning you are willingly being bent over w/o lube), than who cares. Most people that buy those cables have a theatre room, and I am not talking 20x15 rooms. Monster needs to go out of business...
If the store favors apple they will tell people that every single PC will get a virus and they will need to get really expensive anti-virus that needs to be updated five times a day. If the Store is Bias against apple then macs are incapable of doing PC things such as Word processing. Got to love Best Tards
Really? C'mon. Most Best Buys don't even have an employee maning the Apple section.
Not saying this story is true or false but Best Buy employs non-commissioned based sales staff. There are no quotas to speak of. This is a public company and sales quotas would be accessible to stockholders.
I do not intend to be rude, but there is a difference in HDMI cables, no matter what the Internet tells you. Conductors, shielding materials/layers and the way the connectors are put together are a few differentiators. An AudioQuest Coffee cable, for example, which is several hundred dollars ($600 I believe for a 1.5m) is made of pure silver starting with the tips and going the length of the cable. This is not the same as a no name $5 dollar HDMI cable from Amazon.
That is a little extreme. I can see perhaps there is a difference in a cable that is longer than 10 feet, but really I will not spend more than $4 on a cable. If you can afford a $600 HDMI 3 FOOT cable and are conscious when you buy it (meaning you are willingly being bent over w/o lube), than who cares. Most people that buy those cables have a theatre room, and I am not talking 20x15 rooms. Monster needs to go out of business...
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